Telephone Interview by Peter Weissbach on
Weissbach Talk Radio Show KOGO
April 14, 1997
of David S. Devor, Chairman and Exec. Director
PROJECT MIND FOUNDATION, Jerusalem

Introduction
David S. Devor of Jerusalem Israel, now on the line, says that universal awakening can be achieved through science. He also says that we can all exist in a utopia of material abundance and well-being where we are free to explore our infinite potential. He has established an international foundation based in Jerusalem, called the Project Mind Foundation to promote this ideal.

Peter:
David S. Devor joins us now. Hi how are you?

David:
Hello Peter. Very well, thank you. Yourself?

Peter:
Very well thanks.

David:
Thank you very much for having me on your program.

Peter:
You say that the present paradigm in our societies is consumption. Consumption is the aim and work is only the means to get to that consumption. Do you think all people are like that?

David:
Well, its a good question. I think we aspire not to be that way but by the nature of things, our vulnerability, our mortality, we're always grasping for a little bit more security. Some people call it terror management. So in the final analysis, to a greater or lesser extent, we are seeking to consume or to receive and our efforts are to that end.

Peter:
So, do you think we consume things because we are trying to forget our mortality, we're trying to forget that we really do have an insecure life from moment to moment?

David:
Well, the image that I sometimes use to remind myself of just how difficult the human condition is - I picture us all being in a very large room with a small airhole at the top, with everybody trying to clamber on top of everybody else in order to get that breath of fresh air from the top.

 Its only the person who finally makes it to the top at the expense of everybody else who discovers that he really isn't a lot better off at the top than he was at the bottom, if you see what I mean.

Peter:
Yes. What you're saying is that sense of longing or hollowness is still there.

David:
Yes. We are vulnerable, we are mortal, and we haven't used the inherent genius within us in order to solve that problem. It's a physical problem, and we are ignorant of the physical world around us, science hasn't even scratched the surface of what we have to find out.

Peter:
In your brochure which you sent me, you say that through holistic science to create unlimited physical abundance and consequently spiritual awakening for all. So that's part of your mission. And I was thinking that, are you saying that its our quest for the material that keeps us from the spiritual?

David:
No. I'm saying it's our ignorance of the physical that keeps us vulnerable.

And the fact that we're vulnerable makes us always attached to things, to physical things, because they give us a bit of an edge. If we're better off it means we're going to have better security, we're going to have better access to medical attention, and all these things. But in the final analysis we all succumb, so it's a little bit vain.

 The idea is, if you like, that if we could achieve total physical abundance, and I claim that it is possible - if you want an image of it you can think in terms of the star trek replicator where all you have to do is ask the computer for something and it synthesizes it for you out of subatomic particles, right there and then...

Peter:
So what it does, it sort of rearranges the atoms, to give you what you want.

David:
Right. If we had a world where everybody could have physically what they want, and again I claim that this is possible, people would no longer be concerned, obsessed, attached to physical things.

In other words, we wouldn't need cupboards or drawers or even pockets, because anything that we wanted we would call for and then recycle. And instead of having a lot of stuff around the way we do now because we're accumulating and saving, maybe we're going to need it later, we'd only use things physically in the moment and then recycle them.

Our desires, because humans are essentially desire, would attach themselves to what remains and that is, if you like, the metaphysical. The claim here is that the physical world, although it seems to fill everything is just the very thin crust of existence. The bulk of reality is spiritual.

Peter:
You say actually here, you say that freed from its identification with the physical, human desire will inevitably attach itself to the remaining 99.99%+ of reality which is metaphysical. Now what do you mean by that?

David:
That's right. What I mean is that the physical world is only the thin crust of reality. And that the spiritual - everything that is real - is still hidden from us, just the way most knowledge is still hidden from us.

Peter:
So you're saying that the metaphysical, that which is beyond the physical, I think that's what metaphysical means...

David:
If you like, yes, our thoughts, the exchange that's going on between us, really is not of a physical nature.

Peter:
But all I'm aware of is my physical environment.

David:
Well, that's part of our problem. If all our physical needs were supplied, if, and when I say all our physical needs, I mean no more disease, no more death as well...

Peter:
You mean immortality as well?

David:
Yes, of course. It's a definite need of intelligence. Once you're intelligent, you want to exist, you want to grow, you want to develop. The fact that you have to die, kind of co-opts those options.

Peter:
Kind of a bummer really, isn't it?

So, what you envision is through science that we reach immortality, and that we have physical abundance, like a replicator, like a star trek replicator, so we really have no need. My question was, and I understood that from your literature, but the question that came to me is - how do I get my own replicator?

David:
Well, it's not "your" own replicator, it's "our" own replicator. Once something is discovered and disseminated it belongs to all of us.

For instance, you and I probably both have on our wrists right now digital watches with an LCD display. If you wanted that 50 years ago, you could have a hundred million dollars, a hundred billion dollars, and you couldn't have it.

Peter:
Right.

David:
Because it just wasn't there.

If we have this abundance, then we will be free to begin developing. The point is that our mind is vestigial, at this moment.

Peter:
What does that mean?

David:
It means that we're completely undeveloped.

We've been under this pressure of materialism, we've been living in this two dimensional world, for so long that we haven't had an opportunity to develop. Once we're free of this terror that is behind everything that we do and everything that we feel and think unconsciously, once we get past that, we will be free of the spiritual gravity and we'll be able to begin to grow.

You know there are a lot of people who believe in telepathy and other PSI possibilities such as precognition and telekinesis and yet its very hard to find very much confirmation, very much hard evidence for them.

It's my contention that if our minds were to be free of this attachment to the mere crust of reality we would start growing in that direction and, very quickly, telepathy would become the most common form of communication. Our minds, eventually, would be able to replace replicators in moving stuff around and more particularly in transforming material things from one thing to another.

Our minds now are really not the slightest fraction of their potential. We have an unlimited potential, an infinite potential that's there to be discovered. People find it hard to believe. It is hard to believe. But remember, every benefit, every blessing that we have of a physical nature was very hard to believe not very long ago as well. Most of the things that we have, a thousand years ago would be thought of in terms of miracles.

Peter:
You mean what we have today, a thousand years ago people would have said that's a miracle.

David:
Exactly. Just this conversation that you and I are having sitting half way around the world...

Peter:
Yes, you're in Jerusalem

David:
That's right. Not to speak of all the people who are listening to us.

Peter:
All right listen, stand by. Just one thing before I go for the break. Do you believe yourself that some people have telepathic ability now?

David:
Well if you have kids, half the time you're reading their minds. It's a question of being tuned in. And the further away you are, the more difficult the circumstances, the more difficult the tuning. The fact is that because our minds are as weak as they are, all we do, all we see, is a very very weak response. Although some people see a little bit more than others. I believe it's a possibility, but what we're seeing in terms of real distance telepathy is almost impossible to prove.

Peter:
Alright, David S. Devor stand by. David S. Devor is the director of the Project Mind Foundation which believes I guess literally that our salvation will come through science.

If you have any comments or questions you can join us now, we have a couple of phone lines open and waiting just for you. You can also join us at the Weissbach.com worldwide website. Just go to the chat page when you get there. (break)

Peter:
Our guest is David S. Devor who is the director of the Project Mind Foundation in Jerusalem.

David, you say that we're all partners of the Creator and that we're charged with revealing the wonders of creation through science. So do you see science as our salvation, or do you see religion as our salvation?

David:
I see a synthesis of the two. I'll explain what I mean.

I feel that the religious establishment and spirituality in general have kind of let us down. One of the most common spiritual tenets is that the greatest light will be revealed from within the darkest obscurity.

You'd expect that men of great spiritual prowess with control over their own faculties and attention would have concentrated on the problems of this world - the physical problems - the problems of disease, the problems of lack, and penetrated the secrets of nature and the secrets of matter and relieved us of all kinds of restrictions, the way science is really doing now, but not in the right way.

And yet they haven't. And I don't know if you want to go into right now why. The point is - look around you, look at the world that we have. In spite of everything we're in trouble.

And so in that default it kind of left the whole world, the whole physical world, the whole world of matter to the materialists - to materialist science.

Peter:
And, Project Mind is not looking for members right?

David:
Well, its not a question of members. We're trying to set up an experiment that will enable us to realize the higher creative capacity that is within man, that we call Accelerated Thought. And I guess this is something we also have to talk about.

Peter:
What is Accelerated Thought?

David:
Accelerated Thought is a high energy process whereby we can accelerate the creative process within us to a very great degree. Let me paint it to you in this fashion.

Right now science, as it is, is thought of as having laboratories, methodologies and instruments - but that's the body of science.

The fact is that science really is the inspiration, the spark of inspiration, the vision that an individual has, the Eureka inspiration, that comes from nowhere and brings a new possibility into the world. Now, this is just a spark, it's restricted light, it's not an ongoing vision, an holistic vision that could go directly to its application.

So you've got this tiny little spirit nourishing this big body of science that's trying to suck some meaning and usefulness out of these inspirations.

What we want to do is reverse the process and make the inspirational element, the contemplative element, the major part of it. Allow a person to obsess if you like - I don't like the word - in religion there's a much better term for it - with all your heart and with all your soul and with all the means at your disposal - to give yourself over completely to a question in science so that your whole body starts to unfold into a kind of cyberspace of vision where the vision can elaborate within and enable you to go very quickly from vision to application.

The reason that science goes so slowly and is so bureaucratized is that its spirit, its soul if you like, is stunted and therefore it has grown this massive bureaucratized body where every tiny increment of progress costs millions and millions of dollars.

Peter:
So are you saying that the way they can get into this Accelerated Thought state is if they don't have to worry about any physical needs whatsoever?

David:
Well no, I wouldn't put it that way. There's no easy way to escape from the physical. Even the wealthy are obsessed with the physical. I'm saying something different.

There are people in the world who for developmental reasons - and maybe people who call in will have that question - for developmental reasons there are people who are deeply committed, who their whole lifetime have dreamt of giving themselves over totally to this type of thing but have never had the conditions to do it. In our society obsession is not kindly looked upon. And yet, in these terms, obsession is about the highest function that a person could have.

Peter:
So what you're trying to do David, you're trying to get a number of scientists to join you?

David:
Exactly. We're looking for scientists who have undergone certain experiences in childhood.

If you like, up to the age of four we're told fairy tales. You know that. It's fairly common. And we're told that good always prevails over bad, and that the prince and the princess live happily ever after. We're sold this dissident material by our parents, and it's quite universal.

And people don't ask themselves why. Why are children so protected from horrors and told all this material if later they're just to be told that life is not a bowl of cherries, and life is hard and then you die, and things of that nature.

And I think what happens is, around the age four, when we start becoming amenable to reason, we start seeing things around us which are inconsistent with this utopia that we've been sold. And we're told that maybe there is no santa claus, etc, etc.

What happens is that we in most cases, fold, we abandon this utopian world, this beautiful world that is going for us, and we accept the fact that we're going to have to now go into school and instead of learn through direct experience, touching and feeling and joy, we're going to go into this school, it's going to cram us full of second hand knowledge, in other words information, and that's it.

But there are a few, a very, very few, who somehow find the inner resources to reject the authority of the parent and somehow remain attached. The extreme example would be autism if you like, where they totally retreat into another world and refuse to enter this one. But I'm talking about people who kind of straddle the two. Who remain totally believing...

Peter:
Have you found any of those?

David:
Actually, we have. Yes. Not many, but that's one of the main reasons I'm speaking to you right now. And I'm very grateful for the opportunity for the outreach, for the possibility of people who have this kind of ideal, this kind of yearning, that goes back to early childhood, people who would like to give themselves over totally to an investigation.

Peter:
David, stand by. David Devor of the Project Mind Foundation is our guest. (break)

Peter:
So, David Devor, director of Project Mind Foundation let me ask you this. Have you recruited scientists now, are they working on your projects?

David:
We're not there yet. What we're going to need is, we're going to have to create conditions that will make it possible. We have plans, we have an architect who has planned the institute that's going to make this possible. But we're still going to need something like 30 million dollars to erect the facility and to run it for the first 3 years.

Peter:
So you are raising money for this project.

David:
That is correct. That's our function. Up until now we've done all you can do as an association. We've created a website and we have a mail list that's called Mochin, with 350 subscribers discussing the question of world transformation, and we have a symbol, and we have all these things that you can see at our website.

We've now reached the point where we're going to have to actually go ahead and do it. And our two priorities now are finding the kind of people we're going to need, I think that's going to be the hardest thing, finding the right kind of people, and the next hardest thing will be to find the money.

Peter:
Now, so you see this transformation - you're going to have all kinds of resistance from this kind of stuff. I mean, because you're envisioning really, a society where there is no physical want, so I imagine there isn't going to be any kind of a market place either.

David:
Well, there's no need for a market place or money. What we're talking about is a world that isn't materialistic and that doesn't have to be.

Right now we're on a collision course with matter because of the default of science and of the default of spirit. And each day that passes science is putting more and more dangerous tools, weapons, biological, chemical, all kinds of things into the hands of people who are full of rancor and despair, not necessarily because of their own fault. And the world is becoming a more and more dangerous place all the time. And we're kind of locked into the situation. To make it worse, think in terms of this collision course with matter - we also have the problem of pollution. Air and atmosphere and water and all kinds of things that perhaps we don't even realize are degrading all the time.

Peter:
And your idea is that ultimately through science that we can get rid of any kind of want on the part of people...

David:
Not science as it exists today.

Peter:
I understand what you're saying. But ultimately through your model of science that we would have no physical wants whatsoever, we would not be denied anything and also we'd get to the point of immortality. So what happens, if you happen to be a Christian and you believe that you're going to be in for the good time in heaven. How do you check out to get to heaven?

David:
Well who's to say that heaven isn't supposed to be here.

If we are in fact partners with the Creator in this world and we're expected to reveal His greatness in this world shouldn't this be the local of heaven. This is the world that he gave us. Aren't we supposed to turn this world into a Paradise? Wasn't that really the idea of science to begin with? Wasn't that our hope from science before it disappointed us and started going the wrong way.

And I think its going the wrong way because its perspective is materialistic. It doesn't have a three dimensional outlook, it doesn't see the vertical, it's not accessing the transcendant, and therefore its spirit is stunted.

And that's what we have to do, we have to put the spirit back into science and then you'll have the synthesis of science and spirituality.

Peter:
Alright. People can get more information by accessing your website which is: http://www.projectmind.org/

Well, thank you so much, interesting concept.

David:
I wonder if I could just give my email address for those who might not get the webscope right. It's: devor@projectmind.org
That's my name. Or for those who can remember it more easily, Project Mind Foundation: pmf@projectmind.org

Peter:
Thank you so much.

David:
Thank you sir.